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Dudley Observatory
Supporting research and education in astronomy, astrophysics, and the history of astronomy |
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Harvey Patashnick Interview
Becca: Okay well, I’m supposed to introduce everyone at the table so, our note takers are Catie Vincent and Dan Van Deusen, Paul Fang and Dan Royle, Dr. Mr. Patashnick and Becca Stern will be interviewing. Dave Morse and Josh Levy are sitting at the end of the table (laughter). Okay,
Janie: Also present is Janie Schwab.
Becca: Oh right sorry I didn’t see you (laughter). Yes, so I guess kind of tough question to start this of is, what do you think is your biggest accomplishment? You can..
Harvey: Well you certainly start off with the simple ones don’t you?
Becca: Yea.
Harvey: Um, that’s a difficult question to answer in that, um, it, it depends on whether I want to answer that in terms of my biggest personal accomplishment or my biggest professional accomplishment.
Becca: Um, well maybe can you do like, one of each?
Harvey: One of each. Well I think the professional one is the easiest one to summarize. Well I think the greatest accomplishment I had was being able to start a um, rather interesting um, business that grew to a considerable size, and was able to do it um, basically through developing my own ideas and um, over a long period of time, getting the world to recognize that those ideas were worth some commercial value, and um, basically through my own um, how shall I phrase it? um, persistence, was able to develop a company of a decent size, and uh worldwide reputation ultimately. So from a professional point of view that’s kind of an easy thing. From a personal point of view, I think everybody looks in terms of their families and whatever and the fact that I was able to develop a career and still um, devote considerable time to my family and whatever was probably my greatest personal accomplishment. But the two, as you get older, um, are sometimes in conflict, and it’s very difficult to have both at the same time.
Becca: That’s great. Um, so well this kind of ties in to your family achievement, but um, how did the people around you maybe your family before now or your parents, help you to get to this point and start your own company?
Harvey: Um, you know, I think a lot of things that shaped my passion for doing something and for really um, being as I say persistent about uh what I want to achieve did indeed come from my parents. Um, my parents were not, they didn’t get very much of a formal education, and they recognized how much of a difficulty that represented to them in terms of making it in the world, and I can still remember my mother saying to me you know, “get an education, get an education,” and she didn’t care if I became a shoemaker, as long as I was an educated shoemaker. And um, that was an important um, um, factor, and I took her advice, and I didn’t become a shoemaker now because I didn’t want to be a shoemaker, but certainly she was right; getting an education was the key.
Becca: Um, the next question, um would your, is, what, who is your most influential, most influential mentor and would that be your mother? Judging from the last question obviously…
Harvey: Well I think in terms of inspiring me to um, get out in to the world and do something, certainly she was. In terms of a professional mentor, it was actually the director of Dudley Observatory who recognized when I was a senior in high school basically, um, that um, I might have some talent, and he really was very influential in getting me involved in the type of work I ultimately wound up doing.
Becca: Cool. Um, I’m interested in like, what is, I mean not to get too deep in to the details of your science but um, what is like, your company and can you tell us a little bit about it?
Harvey: Yea actually, my company started to a large extent as a result of the um, work I did early on at Dudley Observatory, and uh, the observatory back in the 1960s was looking at uh, micrometeorites, which are very tiny particles, and they collected these micrometeorites uh, in the upper atmosphere using high altitude balloons and saddle rockets and things like that. It was a really exciting thing when I was in high school to see that going on, and when I started at college, I went to the University at Albany, I was a student assistant at the observatory, I had to work my way through school, and um, continued that work. In any event, um, working with those small particles, I was given a project to develop a way to measure the mass of those small particles, and I developed instrumentation that could actually determine the mass of very very tiny particles, and this eventually wound up in to a whole series of instrumentation, which uh, led to the ability to measure fine particles in the air, fine particles in engine exhaust and in smoke stacks, particles in workplaces like coal dust, and whatever. And also, I worked up some space craft instrumentation when they wanted to measure some dust coming off a comet. I developed some instruments to go on space craft for that type of thing. The mission never flew unfortunately, but um, none the less. So we developed from the early work at Dudley with small particles, we developed a whole series of instruments which eventually became commercially successful. And um, are now located all over the world, thousands of them monitoring the air, determining whether it’s healthy or not to breathe the air, and um EPA uses them, they’re used over in Europe, and the UK and China.
Becca: Wow. Um, were there, I guess working at Dudley is sort of the precursor to your work at the company, but were there any specific events that were exciting you think, that led to you studying these small particles or, um, to like, developing the company?
Harvey: Specific events. Well It’s amazing where things lead. Um, I thought certainly looking at extraterrestrial particles was kind of an interesting thing, so from the very beginning it was fascinating. Um when we developed instrumentation for looking at what was in the air, I thought it was a neat thing, and that it was the design to protect peoples’ health which is kind of important these days. But then, other kinds of things came up as a result of our establishing reputation in this area. For instance, when the terrible events of 9/11 occurred, and uh, the World Trade Center disaster, we were called to deliver some instruments which had to monitor around the area of destruction, and uh, when something like that comes up you basically shut down all other production and you immediately get those instruments built and out there. Um we were also called on, as a result of the anthrax attacks, to um, develop instruments which could monitor biological materials, because particles in the air, doesn’t make any difference whether it’s uh combustion products, or unfortunately there are some nasty particles in the air which many people put in, so we were called on to do that. So it’s strange how things, when you think something as um, almost as relatively unexciting as small particles, sometimes develop in to rather important things. We’ve also been called to measure for instance, the results of what happens with um the major forest fires that were occurring in Asia at one point, and also um, in The West, and in Canada. So all of a sudden, we’re in the middle of not just mundane monitoring, but important global events.
Becca: Wow, well, this is not on our list, but would it be possible to like, have you developed instruments that could maybe predict um, or like, I dunno, sense the, I dunno what is the most sensitivity of your instruments, are they able to like…
Harvey: Well, okay you’re getting in to a more technical area now, so I’ll answer it simple. Um one of the advantages of the instruments that we’ve developed is that they are scaleable, in other words, they can be used to measure extremely small particles or not such extremely small particles. If you’re familiar with laboratory microbalances, I don’t know what sort of balances (mumble), pardon me?
Student: We just have like the four beam balances.
Harvey: Just the four beam? Okay, well when you go off to college or whatever, you’ll come across some balances in laboratories, and if it’s under very carefully controlled environmental conditions and placed on a granite slab so it doesn’t shake or whatever, you might be able to measure something like a microgram material. Um, that’s very large for the types of balances that we produce. Uh, the very first balance that I made as a junior in college, when I first developed this, could immediately weight down to ten to the minus nine, or a thousandth of the microgram, and I developed balances that can weigh a millionth of the microgram, ten to the minus twelve grams, okay so, and the real surprising thing about this is when you compare it to a, a balance that’s in a laboratory which has to operate under climate control conditions and on, as I say a granite slab, the balances that we’re able to produce, could be used in the field, and you could use these balances smoke stacks, and people can actually wear these balances, so miners can wear these things down in coal mines and determine how much coal dust they’re inhaling. So these are much more sensitive than laboratory balances and yet they’re much more rugged. So really, that opened the door to a lot of applications.
Becca: Cool. Um, so kind of getting away from the business side of this or the technical side, um, what do you do to relax after a hard day of work or at the observatory or… (laughter)
Harvey: Well, a number of things. In terms of activities I like to play tennis, okay that really is great, um, I have a uh, I have an antiques sports car, uh 1963 corvette, which is a fun vehicle, and always something to do on that, in fact the carburetor plugged up just the other day so I have to take that apart now, but anyway, that’s a fun car. I’ve had that since 1968 actually, I uh, got that when I was in college, and um, rebuilt the engine and all that, so I enjoy working on that sort of stuff. And I do for relaxation, as well, quite a bit of astronomy. I have an observatory in my backyard and I love doing astronomy. I take rather interesting pictures of different celestial objects and I’m doing work with students to get some measurements and whatever, so yea all sorts of things.
Becca: That’s nice. Um, so what is it like to be the CEO of a company, or to lead a lot of people?
Harvey: Well it’s interesting because um, when I started off I never envisioned I’d be the head of a company, so I started off in research, I thought I’d go on and basically get a position at a college someplace or uh, maybe work for NASA. In fact I was offered a job at ??? Space Club Center at one point, and I thought I’d always be doing research type work. Um, it’s, it’s, there’s no simple answer to say what it’s like being a CEO. First of all, I didn’t all of a sudden wake up one day and say “ Oh gosh, I’m the CEO of a company,” or whatever. Of course you have to remember this company started with my partner and myself, just the two of us, and you know when you’re a two person company, you know who’s the CEO and who’s the president, it doesn’t make any difference. Then we grew to you know, four people, and eventually ten people. And you know, I guess all of a sudden one day technically I was the CEO after we got to I dunno, fifty people, or whatever, we’ve gotten to over a hundred people ultimately. Uh, what it’s like? Um, it’s not easy, alright? And people think that when you get in to the position where you can run a company, that you know, that gives you a lot of flexibility and this type of thing. And it really doesn’t because there are a lot of constraints when running a company. On the one hand it’s fun because it is um, it is a position of responsibility and if you have the personality, and I, um, there is a definition of an entrepreneur which I fit, which also fits in terms of being a CEO, and that is the inability to work for anybody else, and I think that that describes me pretty well. So there is a certain advantage in that sense, uh if you have that personality. But there’s an awful lot of responsibility because there are a lot of people who are really depending on you and the decisions that you make. Some people will make a decision and then they’ll think about it again, okay I don’t do that. I make a decision ??? is that the right decision and so on and so forth. So um, it’s um, it’s fun sometimes, and it is, and it is, and you lose a lot of sleep other times.
Becca: Um how did you meet your partner, in, in the company.
Harvey: Actually it was after I had developed that initial balance to look at micrometeorites. I published a paper and um, someone at Martin Marietta Corporation, which is now Lockey ?? happened to come across that paper. And at that time, which was in the uh, let’s see I published it in 1969 so uh, early 1970s, uh, I got a phone call from Martin Marietta Corporation, and the, before the international space station was launched uh years ago or whatever, the first space station was called Sky Lab, I dunno if you’ve heard of Sky Lab or not. They were having a problem with Sky Lab, and one of the problems was that there were ice particles that were forming on the outside of the spacecraft, and they were floating around the spacecraft, and they were reflecting sun light, and ice particle or a snowflake can sometimes reflect quite a bit of light. With their extremely sensitive cameras on board Sky Lab, and they wipe out the cameras every time they reflect sunlight. So this person read about the balance I made, and wanted to know if I could measure under space conditions, the life time of ice particles in space. Well I was young, and I didn’t realize how difficult of a task that was, and I figured what the heck, sure I can! And you know, when you don’t know too much about something you’re very optimistic about being able to solve a problem. Um so I got a contract to do that, and the person who was assigned to be the tentacle monitor of the contract, in other words, when you have a contract and you agree to do the work, but then the organization that gives you the contract has a person in charge to you know um, make sure that reports are filed on time and those other type of things, and that tentacle monitor came to visit me and he got so intrigued with what I’m doing he said “Look I don’t want to just write reports. Why don’t we just team up to do this together, it’d exciting stuff.” And that was George Rupreck and he became my partner.
Becca: That’s neat. Um, to talk about Dudley for a few minutes, um how long were you working at Dudley?
Harvey: I started um, just after my senior year in high school, so pretty much immediately right when I studied college, and I went to State University at Albany, so it was it was a close walk. Dudley Observatory was located on South Lake Avenue at the time, and the University at Albany was actually not too far away; it was on Western Avenue, um, that’s the downtown campus, I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, and um, yea I started there in 1963, and I started out as a student assistant, which meant initially I swept the floors, literally, no joke, but I knew something about astronomy. When I was in junior high school I built my own telescope. I mean everything, I didn’t just buy parts, I actually made the optics, ground the optics and everything else. So I knew something about astronomy, so they had a telescope and some stuff like that, and part of the work I did besides sweeping the floors, was I would help and run open nights, so every Tuesday night I’d be at the telescope showing the public the moon and the planets and star clusters and things like that. And uh eventually as I , I was a physics major in college, and as I learned more and more or whatever um, when I was a junior I was offered five hundred dollars by the National Science Foundation to do any type of research I wanted, and that’s when I went to the director of Dudley Observatory who suggested I come up with a way to measure the mass of micrometeorites. So that uh…
Becca: Led to your success. Yea. Um, what do you think is the greatest aspect of the Dudley Observatory?
Harvey: Uh it depends upon the time period. If you’re talking about presently or uh…
Becca: Yea presently.
Harvey: Presently the greatest aspect is I think it’s um, dedication to astronomy education, which I fully agree is the most important mission that Dudley can have. And in terms of being both a scientist and an entrepreneur and a business person and whatever, I really think that science education is exceptionally important and in this society somewhat misunderstood. And I think astronomy education in particular is pivotal to really understanding uh where we really are as a species on this planet. And I think if more people had a little more education in astronomy, I think their overall view, not just in terms of science technology, but their overall view in terms of uh, of um, of life on this planet would be improved for the better.
Becca: Okay. Um, I was asked to ask you about this, um, what do you know about the Dudley Curse? Or anything of that nature…
Harvey: Uh oh. (laughter) The Dudley Curse well (laughter), who told you that, who told you that?
Becca: well we had a field trip and we were hinted that there is a such, a Dudley Curse, but we don’t know much about it.
Harvey: Well I don’t, I’m…
Becca: It’s fine if you don’t have anything…
Harvey: Well I’m assuming
Becca: Are these like, the ideas that end up working? Are they your favorite inventions, or what is you favorite patent or invention? That you…
Harvey: Well, I mean I think just the initial barrels that I came up with early on is kind of neat thing. I mean you realize how neat it was when I came up with it, um, and um, I’d say the second most…interesting one was one I came up with recently which was, was more technical so I don’t want to get in to it, but it solved a longstanding problem of, with how to correctly measure the particles in the air which have e??? Substances as well as non??? Substances, okay that’s a really technical thing, but um, well that has been a problem that has been plaguing people for a long time, and I think I successfully came up with a way to solve that, using ?????? to do that. I think that point of view um, is interesting, in terms of some science papers and whatever, I’m kind of proud of some work I did on the um, what happens to ice in space and how that relates to comets and things like that.
Becca: Um, would you say those are your most... what would you say is your most influential invention, in terms of like impacting society?
Harvey: Well, I think the basic um, microbalance is probably the most important thing. Because, as I say, it’s used worldwide. Many um, uh, environmental protection agencies around the world have standardized on this instrumentation so it’s become um, rather important in environmental, in the environmental arena.
Becca: That’s good. Well, um, that’s all of our questions that we have so far. Like, does anyone want to add a question? I dunno…
Josh: Uh, Josh Leavy speaking. Um, before we asked you about what was the best aspect of the Dudley Observatory, and you differentiated between um, the present Dudley Observatory and the Dudley Observatory that you might have worked at. Um, what was the best aspect of that Dudley Observatory and how has it changed and evolved over the years?
Harvey: The um, Dudley that I initially was involved with was certainly more research oriented, so it was a very exciting place to work at. It really um, formed a basis on how I look at research and how I think about problems, and one of the most enjoyable aspects of uh, Dudley at the time was the uh, connections between the researchers, where we could sit down for instance at a coffee break, and have a discussion about all kinds of crazy things, which then eventually people started to develop ideas out of. Uh, this goes back to what I was saying about you know, disparate ideas coming together. So basically, it was a much more rigorous research institution with some very very bright people, uh, and that was a very exciting aspect of it. Uh, nowadays it’s not a research institution, but it is devoting it’s time to educational activities. And then prior to the time that I was associated with Dudley, uh, the um, you may have heard from others, there was some very important work being done on the positioning of where stars are positioned in the sky, and some catalogs were made, which were very important in terms of deciphering uh, stellar motions and the understanding of how the motions of the Milky Way are perceived and things like that. So there was some very important work that was done, you know a hundred years ago, as well as fifty years ago, and so and so, so it depended upon the time frame for Dudley.
Becca: Um I have actually another question. Um, do you have any long term or short term goals for now? In terms of either your business or research?
Harvey: Well, I recently sold the business, so currently I’m really a consultant to that business and also I am beginning to get involved with some other businesses as well who are trying to tap into the expertise that developed early in my own business. So that’s more the short term. In terms of the long term, I’m always coming up with new concepts and new ideas. Whether they’ll work out or not I don’t know yet. We’ll see. Uh, but I’ll be continuing my involvement certainly in this job and the education, perhaps working with some more students or whatever, I’ve been successful in the past. I’ve worked with two highschool students uh, one of whom was from Bethlehem actually, and they both became um, the other one was from Guilderland High School, they both became intel science competition finalists. Um, one went on to Princeton and then Harvard, and the other one, that was Colin Blight, and then Katie Hartmenn from Guilderland went on to MIT. So, um, and they both worked with me in the observatory, I’d have them in the back yard to take measurements. Um so, I certainly will continue on with astrology education, either um through my own endeavors or perhaps through Dudley.
Student: Yea, I have just a question about your micro particle detection. Like this says you used it, it was used at the 2002 Salt Lake Winter Olympics. Like what sort of things were you ...what were you looking for? Kind of the biological weapons, or?
Harvey: Yea that was uh, for the security of the Olympics. |
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